16/2/2001

Plaid Cymru leader Ieuan Wyn Jones' attempts to ignore Cllr Seimon Glyn's comments descended into farce last night as he was humiliated on BBC Question Time.

After being challenged by Labour's Glenys Kinnock to disown Cllr Glyn's claims on the English in North Wales, Mr Wyn Jones:

* Accused veteran BBC broadcaster, David Dimbleby of presenting "Labour spin" when he was presented with a BBC transcript of Cllr Glyn's comments.

* Denied Cllr Glyn had made the comments in the transcript, before going onto say "he wouldn't have said it that way himself."

* Refused point blank a challenge to condemn outright Cllr Glyn's comments.

Glenys Kinnock MEP said "Ieuan Wyn Jones would rather humiliate himself in public than condemn Cllr Glyn's comments because he knows how many of his own party members share Cllr Glyn's appalling views."

"For Ieuan Wyn Jones to say David Dimbleby's BBC transcript was 'Labour spin' illustrates once more how every time the Nationalists are subject to critical scrutiny they claim dirty tricks."

"This was a humiliating experience for Ieuan Wyn Jones. He is a fundamentally weak leader, afraid to censure a senior member of his party for racist views because of the backlash among his own members."

A full transcript of Ieuan Wyn Jones' comments is attached below.

Question Time transcript
Caernarfon, February 15, 2001

Below is a full transcript of Ieuan Wyn Jones' comments on BBC Question Time.

Sue Barker: A Plaid Cymru councillor recently stated that because of the influx of English people the Welsh language would be dead in ten years. Do the panel think this is correct or was it a remark made to cause racial unrest?

Dimbleby: Yes, there's been a great?this councillor talking about the English coming into Wales has stirred up a hornet's nest about this. Glenys Kinnock, what do you think?

Glenys Kinnock: I think it must be deeply worrying for Plaid Cymru and for the President of Plaid Cymru to have someone who is an elected representative in this area, who is talking of speaking of English as a foreign language, saying that retired people who come to live here are a burden on the community and many, many other very insulting comments have been made by this man, by this councillor and I would really like to ask Ieuan tonight whether he actually approves or disapproves. That's the question that he has not answered. Is he prepared to call this man to account, to say to him that it is totally unacceptable use this kind of language about people who come to live in Wales, who speak English, 85% of the people in Wales speak English, it's not a foreign language. I speak Welsh as well but I don't have a problem speaking English and no-one in this room does. So I want him to tell us, will he hold this man to account; does he approve or does he not approve of what he said?

Dimbleby: Ieuan?

Ieuan Wyn Jones: I will not take lessons from the Labour Party?

GK: Go on, answer. Answer.

Audience: Answer!

IWJ: I will not take lessons. I will answer the question. I will answer the question, not the question put by Glenys Kinnock if I may say so. I will not take any lessons at all from the Labour Party who are cynically and desperately trying to use this?use this situation for their own party political ends.

GK: Shame.

IWJ: What I am asking people to understand is that Seimon Glyn actually raised an issue which was fundamentally an issue that we have to address. And what he was saying, and if you actually take, Glenys, the opportunity to read the script?

GK: I have.

IWJ: ?And not the Labour spin on that script.

GK: I read the transcript from the BBC.

IWJ: Well, I read the transcript as well. And let me say to you this. That what Seimon Glyn was raising was an issue that is concerning many rural communities, he did not say that English was a foreign language?

Dimbleby: He described English as a foreign language?

IWJ: No, no he didn't

Dimbleby: This is the BBC's transcript of it

IWJ: Let me just finish the point

Dimbleby: Alright, well just read it there. He described English as a foreign language and retired English people as a drain on the community..

IWJ: That is the Labour spin on it

Dimbleby: That's the BBC's version of it. That's what he said.

IWJ: That's not what he said. That is not what he said. This is an important issue. He did not say that English is a foreign language and I am saying that English is not a foreign language in Wales. In fact we have two main languages in Wales and for people living in Cardiff there are five other languages as well, so let's not get away from the idea that he was doing it and Labour are cynically now trying to undermine our political campaign for the next General Election, because let me just?

Dimbleby: Can I just?

IWJ: No, let me just?

Dimleby: Well just hold on a?you are adressing?

IWJ: No, no, no?

Dimbleby: I just want to put to you one other one, because you say he didn't say that. Did he say if the English were to come here under strict monitoring and control?

IWJ: Yes

Dimbleby: And if for example they were made aware of the different cultural aspects and made to, or be persuaded to learn English [sic] there wouldn't be a problem, but that's not how?

IWJ: He didn't say, he didn't say, he didn't say that they should?that it's a question of monitoring people. What I think he?the issue underlying the matters that he raised is this; that there are rural communities, not only in Wales but in the whole of Britain and in the whole of Europe that are actually under threat from economic exploitation. Let's make no bones about that, that is a major issue. Now some of the language that he used I wouldn't have used but that is not to decry the fact that there is a major, major problem. Now you have problems?

Dimbleby: What wouldn't you have said that he said?

IWJ: Erm, there are major issues about?

Dimbleby: You said I wouldn't have used some of the language?

IWJ: Ok, ok, we all put things in our own way and I wouldn't have put it in that way. But let me address the issue like this. Let me address the issue like this. You've got areas like the Lake District, like Cumbria that are vulnerable economically. And I think that's the issue we've got to address. We have young people who cannot find homes because they're priced out of the market. We have young people who have to leave their communities because they cannot find work. That is a major, major issue and if we are to understand those issues it's no good making party political points about it; we in this together for the benefit of out rural communities.

Dimbleby: Ok, I'll come to you in a moment. Let's have the woman in the fourth row, in the back row there.

Woman: I never thought I'd actually support a Labour person, I was extremely glad to hear what Glenys Kinnock said and I really, I'm horrified in what our Plaid Cymru gentleman has said.

D: OK. And the man here in the blue shirt ? you sir?

[Audience and discussion with other members of the panel]

Cheryl Gillam: There's a danger of being a consensus on this panel because I agree with both Lembit and Glenys on this and I think Ieuan, it would have been much better if you'd just had the courage to say that Cllr Glyn was wrong in this instance, it would have been a lot better.

I don't know whether you would agree with me but I reckon it is the easiest thing in the world to whip up hatred of other people and particularly race hatred we've seen that happen and we know how dreadful it is. We should stamp it out wherever we see it and after all, how can you tell, who is English and who is Welsh? I sound as if I'm English,don't I? But I was born in Wales and lived in Wales until I was 10 years of age. Is Cllr Glyn going to drive me out a Welsh home should I be lucky enough to have one here?

(Audience contribution..)

David Dimbleby: (to Ieuan Wyn Jones) Cheryl Gillam asked if you wanted to disown or say that this man was wrong, Cllr Glyn, to speak as he did?

IWJ: I am totally opposed to racism. There is no question at all about that. In fact, Plaid Cymru is so committed against racism that within our party constitution we've made it an offence to speak in racist terms. We've made that a part of our constitution, not a policy but a part of our constitution and I know perfectly well what Glenys was saying about 80% of the people of Wales not speaking Welsh. They are as Welsh as anybody else, of course they are and people will come here to live making a contribution to the economy, of course they are welcome, of course that is true and I applaid that and in my own area of Anglesey, the area I represent, I understand that fully and I know perfectly well that many people who have come into Anglesey have made an excellent contribution now actually support me and have done so for many many years. What I think, though is something that that we should deplore, is any words and if I thought that any words, any member of Plaid Cymru used words which were racist, they would have no place in Plaid Cymru. I make that absolutely clear. But what I will not put up with also is the Labour Party cynically and desperately trying to undermine what somebody was trying to do.

David Dimbleby: Before we go on to another question, "It's no use to the community having retired people from England coming down here to live and being a drain on our resources." Do you disown that?

IWJ: Of course I disown that. Of course I disown that.

David Dimbleby: And you said there was no place in Plaid Cymru for it so is there a place in Plaid Cymru for Seimon Glyn?

IWJ: Well, look. Yes there is (interruption ? 'when's he going?' from audience member,'when's he resigning?' from another audience member), no, no, no, no. This is it. Here we have the Liberal Democrats again. Siemon Glyn has apologised if his words, yes he has and we have accepted that apology.

Lembit Opik: But how can he say something like that by accident?

IWJ: I know what the words are, right?, I know exactly what he said in that transcript and they are not as described tonight, I can assure you of that.

Glenys Kinnock: I can't understand that. He took himself to a BBC studio to give an interview, it wasn't as if was doorstepped and just said something without thinking it through. This is clearly his view based on things and actions he has taken in the past. You still are slightly distancing yourself from him and you are admitting now obviously this is what he said so ?.

IWJ: No, I'm not..

GK: So perhaps you will also admit that he talked about "monitoring English people"

IWJ: He didn't, he didn't

GK: Well you asked me to check the transcript and I did. I grew up in Anglesey and I know that I grew up in a county and a country that valued tolerance and honesty. The least they can expect from their MP is to get tolerance and honesty.

Source:	Wales Labour Party
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